Under the Microscope: Calvinism

In my previous post, I talked about how I was apprehensive about posting a comment on a blog owned and operated by a Christian apologist, specifically, a Calvinist. This apprehension was due, in part, to having encountered her comment policy and disclaimer, but also, because of a few brushes I've had with her on another blog that I frequent. Or to be more precise, a place where I (and others) have dismantled her Calvinist arguments and challenged her on her various mini-lectures, most of which, at the end of the day, can be filed under bare assertion fallacies.

Bare assertion fallacy: When a premise is introduced as a conclusion without substantiation.

Ref:: https://logfall.wordpress.com/

Now, this woman's repertoire is not limited to assertion fallacies, mind you. No. Also common, are ad hominem, begging the question, and strawman fallacies. An example would be when she arrogantly asserts that any person who loses their "faith" was never really saved to begin with. Another would be that, to her, any non-believer has "rejected God", by proxy.

 It is these sad and inane sorts of arguments that I will deal with in this post. Why? Well, because as I've said many times, the religious, too many times, use their religion as a "license" to, a)  be insensitive, judgmental jerks, and b) claim to know what they cannot possibly know.

While I never got around to commenting on her post entitled, "The Problem with Atheists", I did attempt a comment on a post titled "Another Post on Hell":

 http://susanflutterbys.blogspot.com/2015/03/another-post-on-hell.html

Just as I suspected, my comment was not permitted to go through. Ooo, shocker. And that's funny, because I thought "the Truth" had nothing to hide(?) But evidently, it does.

UPDATE:  The blogger in question eventually responded. My new responses were allowed to go through, but she has since closed comments

Below is an earlier excerpt of my conversation with her. 

The red type is her engaging another blogger:

I guess that is the most revealing part to me that you never were saved ~ Susan Z.

My response: "So, in other words, once saved, always saved, is essentially what you're saying(on top of claiming to know people's experiences and intentions better than they do)

If I'm understanding correctly(and I'm confident you'll correct me where I'm wrong), 'God' elects someone as 'His' by no will of their own, aka, 'saving' them, and once that happens, 'saved' is the way they'll stay until their last, dying breath.

If I'm right so far, feel free to explain to me and your readership exactly where 'free will' comes in after the point of election. As it stands, once elected, one presumably cannot do anything to change that by any will of their own. To me, that sounds an awful lot like a 'robot'. But again, perhaps you have an explanation that I haven't heard yet."

There is still time ~ Susan Z.

My response:  "Still time? For what? What can [fellow deconvert] or any other 'unsaved' person do if it all boils down to who 'God' elected(past tense, because this election process presumably took place before 'creation')???"


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Now, before I go a step further, I feel it's imperative that I point out that people of religions besides Christianity, and yes, even non-religion, can be things like insensitive and judgmental. But here's the rub: As an Atheist, I don't have the luxury of pointing to any mandates or invisible, supreme beings in an attempt to affirm or objectify my actions, attitude, or position. No, all I have is my sense of reason. Without that, I have nothing. "Faith"? That is an intellectual cop-out.

So, moving on.....

In Calvinism, which, in my opinion is the most despicable of all the upwards of 33, 000 denominations/split-offs of the Christian faith, proponents invariably want to have things both ways. That is, in one breath, they'll insist that the elect are predetermined, and in which case, they did nothing to earn this status. In the same process, this obviously leaves a balance of all those (supposedly) bound for "hell".

Again, this ratio of elect to non-elect was determined before "creation"...before the foundation of the world. And what are the implications? There's a few of them. Firstly, it means that if Calvinists are "right", then the "God" they worship and revere could have created a world inhabited with only those he elected, and not brought into existence those bound for "hell". But he didn't do that. Thus, it is reasonable to conclude that the Calvinist version of "God" brought countless millions into existence just to toss them into a "lake of fire"(See, "double predestination")

 Thus, the Calvinist version of "God" is an immoral, jerk-wad.('good thing there's not one scrap of objective evidence for such a being)

Secondly, if Calvinists are "right" - and this is what Calvinists like Susan Z will tell you - those who stray from the faith were never really "saved".

In other words, they weren't elected to begin with.

Okay, why do these people, in the next breath, tell those who deconvert, things like, "There's still time", when things have already been predetermined/when election has already taken place, and in which case, the implication is that the election process isn't reversible?

Well? Hello? Again I ask... "time" for what, exactly? Susan? Dr. Craig? "God"? "Jesus"? Anyone?

Remember, the Calvinist' "God" already knows which people he elected and which he did not. Do these *non-thinking disciples of John Calvin actually think that their "God" doesn't already know who will die an Atheist and who will die a Calvinist??? If, at the exact time that you finish reading this sentence, the Calvinist' "God" has prescience(foreknowledge) that I will die an "Atheist", then the time between now and then doesn't mean jack-squat. It's immaterial. My "free will" is an illusion at best, a lie at worst.

 So, if you're a Calvinist and you value logic, don't tell us "there's still time!". And if you tell us anyway, then fine, I guess you're going to have to not mind looking like a **an imbecile.

Disclaimer: Here*, and here**, I've used ad hominem. Truth be told, I find it extremely difficult to not use ad hominem with the Susan Z's of the world, who, BTW, aren't limited to just the Christian philosophy. Notwithstanding, an "ad hominem" is when you attack a person's character instead of addressing their argument. It should be clear that I have not done that. I have thoroughly pointed out the contradictory tenets of Susan Z's worldview. Moreover, while she censors her comments, I do not. She can come right in here and defend her position and/or offer a perspective I've not considered. In fact, I welcome it. The last thing I want to do is sit here and defend my errors. 

The Problem with Atheists...

Bouncing around the blogs, I encountered a blog post titled, "The Problem with Atheists". The blog's owner/author is a female Christian apologist, who, by her own admission, is a Bible-literalist. In other words, she believes that the Bible is the literal, infallible "Word of God", despite the mounds of observable evidence that, no, it is chock-full of inconsistencies and heinous scientific blunders, and therefore, cannot be the words of any all-perfect, all-loving "God". But that part is for another discussion.

Anyway, while I may get around to posting a response on the above-mentioned blog, I want to post my response here, first, since I'm nearly certain that I will encounter comment moderation there, especially after having read her comment policy/disclaimer, which closes with the following:

However the bottom line to remember is that this is my blog, not yours. You can say and do as you like, and I have the prerogative to remove it if it doesn't meet up to my standards. And also remember that if your comment is really ridiculous, I might just leave it up for everyone to see the proof that you really are that stupid.

Hmmm, I wonder how she defines "really ridiculous". For some reason, I get the impression that it means... anything that disagrees with me. In any case, my response will be here, and I'll let others judge whether or not it's ridiculous.

The author writes....

Interestingly the topic of what atheists believe and think are explored in this story and the hero of this story struggles with these amoral people from the context of his Russian Orthodox beliefs.

It's ironic that the charge is that atheists are "amoral"..i.e..neither moral, nor immoral, because, interestingly, I contend that that's precisely what theists are. Yes, theists are the ones who are amoral in all of this. That is, when faced with having to decide between "right" and "wrong", they make no moral judgement(s), whatsoever, but instead, they merely (claim to) obey what "God" has (supposedly) told them.

Okay, that's not being "moral"(or immoral), that's merely obeying(or disobeying). Think about it. When a toddler steals daddy's letter opener off the coffee table and starts playing with it and daddy says, "No! Don't touch!", are we really to believe that the child has made a moral judgment? Is the child being "moral" if it obeys?(or "immoral" if it disobeys?). Again, that is a simplistic analogy, but I think it makes the point rather well. I can sort of see where one might be prompted to say that it's not analogous because "adults should know better"(whereas toddlers do not), but that won't fly, because if adults know better, then they don't need to be commanded to do the "right" thing in the first place.

This quote nails it:

Morality is doing what is right no matter what you're told. Religion is doing what you're told no matter what is right.

That theists don't "get" this isn't a problem for atheists, it's a problem for theists.

The Impossible Game

When I was a believer, one of the things that I wrestled with the most was this idea that the most supremely intelligent being in all of existence, AKA, "God", would expect its crowning jewel creation(i.e..you and me), to search for and accept "Truth" in the manner as laid out in this video by Theramin Trees.....

Let's face it, he's spot-on, and after having watched this short, one minute and fifteen second video, it becomes even more apparent to me that such an idea is plain ludicrous. "Faith", as a means to acquire knowledge, is an intellectual cop-out. It really is. Add to that, the plain, observable fact that most believers end up believing/accepting the "Truth" that's prevalent in the region in which they are born and raised...e.g...in the West, Christianity; in the Middle East, Islam; in the Far East, Buddhism, etc., it very quickly becomes a no-brainer: All religions are man-made.  

 

Missing the Point(or ignoring the big picture) Part II

It's been brought to my attention that it seems as though I'm attempting to hold the peaceful and harmless of those of the Christian community, the Muslim community, the New Age community, and possibly other schools of thought, at least partially responsible for the actions of the extremists around the world.

So, I should be clear: Yes, that's pretty much what I'm saying, except that I'd add that it's the method by which these people hold their beliefs, not necessarily their actions, that facilitates the actions of the extremists. The method to which I refer, again, is "faith".

If person X believes that the "creator of the universe" wants them to do A, B, and C, but they cannot demonstrate this belief, then that belief is an article of faith. It's problematic because person Y can then look at that and say, "Oh, yeah? Well, my Creator wants me to do D, E, F and G!". Neither can prove the other wrong.

This is especially troubling when these people insist that sometimes the "creator of the universe" wants people to do despicably horrible things for "good" reasons, commonly and affectionately referred to doing it for "The Glory" of said creator.

This dynamic, I contend, takes place in other areas of  life. For instance, if person Z goes through life believing that disease can be healed by a "shift in consciousness", then we can expect to see self-professed healers and gurus going around propagating that notion, not only cashing in off of those who are ill and desperate to be cured, but putting lives at risk in the process.

Case-in-point: Like it or not, beliefs have consequences. This much is beyond argument.  

Missing the Point(or ignoring the big picture)

So, it's true, praying and having faith in Christ doesn't make a person an extremist anymore than having a gun makes a person a murderer. Owning a copy of John Edward's "One Last Time" doesn't make a person a charlatan. Being a Muslim doesn't make a person a suicide bomber. Being a scientologist doesn't make a person a fruitcake, and so on, and so on.

Notwithstanding, there's the big picture to consider, and this big picture continually gets ignored. There are some not-so-subtle implications for being a Christian, a Muslim, a New Ager, a member of the Church of Scientology, and more. For instance, while it's true that having faith in Christ/Jesus/God doesn't make one an extremist, the belief, itself, most certainly gives extremists a leg to stand on. The belief that our deceased relatives are alive and well enables charlatans like John Edwards and James Van Praagh. The freedom to own a gun makes a deranged killer's job easier. The belief that Muhammad was Allah's prophet is used by terrorists as license to kill non-Muslims.

There is no slippery slope, here. All of the above is demonstrably true. Unfalsifiable beliefs, specifically, those held on "faith", make the world we live in a more dangerous place than it needs to be. To say, 'Yeah, but I'm not like them!' misses the point.

If you are a liberal Christian, you might very well be the furthest thing from an extremist that there is, and for that I thank you. However, at the end of the day you must accept the fact that the wack-job extremists use the same "faith" that you use to defend, excuse, and justify their extremist actions. They, like you, use "prayer" to get the thumbs-up from "God". Think about it.

  

Miracle Baby!

Earthquakes, which, incidentally, have been occurring long before certain holy texts predicted they'd occur, are perhaps one of the most devastating of all natural disasters. As most people with access to the modern world probably know, there was an earthquake in Nepal, located in South Asia. Well, long story short, among the survivors was a baby(pictured to the right)



Rescuers were commenting on how it's uncommon for there to be survivors after 72 hours. 'Not unheard of, but uncommon. In any event, on a certain social networking site Facebook I was noticing Christians commenting in my news feed, saying how it's a "miracle from God"(and phrased various other ways, too).

Arg...::sigh::

Now, of course, I'm happy that there were survivors, whether likely, or unlikely. Where happiness turns into frustration is when certain people completely ignore the fact that upwards of 7000 people had to die in order for this supposed "God" to work this supposed "miracle". Moreover, when we consider that the same "God" who presumably worked this "miracle" could have just prevented the earthquake to begin with, it becomes all the more *head desk* evoking. And then of course, if "God" really wanted to prove its existence via a "miracle", could he have not seen to it that not one person perished? Now that would give cause to believe that something miraculous had taken place, given that history shows that earthquakes as big as this one always have a high death toll.

But noooo. Nope....forget about it. Mysteriously, the results are always what we'd expect to see if there was no "God" in the mix. IOW, just like all big natural disasters, we'd expect to see a few lucky people among the gaggles of very unlucky people. It's a pity, and in more ways than one.

Lunch........... with a Twist

Usually I don't talk about personal matters on here, or anywhere, really, because I am a very private person.  However, sometimes I'll make exceptions depending on the topic.

So, the man who raised me..i.e..the person I called "Dad" is deceased. The guy who fathered me is alive, and while we have lived in the same town for several decades, we see each other roughly 2-3 times a year, max. The reasons for this sparse interaction are many, but mostly it's an issue of time and lack of a father/son bond(again, he didn't raise me).

I'm nearly certain that in previous posts from years ago I mentioned that my bio-father's side of the family is devout Christian. If I didn't mention it, I'm mentioning it now. IOW, I have gaggles of uncles, aunts, cousins, nieces, nephews, all of whom, to the best of my knowledge, are of the Christian faith.

Anyway, a few weeks back I met with my bio-father and his wife(yes, they have names, but I'm respecting their privacy) at a local bar and grille. Let me say straight away that these are good, nice, down-to-earth people, albeit, I'm not what you could call very close to either of them. It's a work in progress.

Anyway, the topic around these lunches usually centers around the things that he and his wife are into, which is mostly the stuff he repairs and/or the various domestic projects he takes on. They also own a cabin in the mountains, and he recently built a fence around the property. His wife had pics' on her phone and she showed me his work. Suffice it to say that he's a very creative individual, especially when it comes to trouble-shooting.

As for me, they inquired about my musical endeavors and what I do to occupy my time. When the subject of music comes up, I usually find myself giving a crash course on the music industry and why playing music, alone, just doesn't sustain me(or 99% of musicians out there, for that matter). Part most of the reason for this is illegal downloading. But this is for another discussion.

This might come as a shock, but I do everything in my power to avoid the topic of religion or politics. Why? Because I know I won't be able to bite my tongue if I sense that some good 'ol fashioned evangelizing is about to come my way. As I've said before, I don't particularly care that there are cultural Christians out there. Where I do begin to care, however, is when/if said Christians attempt to lure me back into the fold. Think of a scenario of a guy who goes waltzing into an AA meeting and says, "Have you tried Miller Lite, yet?".

Now, of course I know that any Christian readers would likely say(or think), "Yeah, but that's different because your eternal soul is as stake!". So, yes, I know that they believe this, but at the end of the day they cannot demonstrate this in any meaningful way, and I'm sorry to have to report that my bio-father was no exception. I love the guy, and all, but his apologetics fell flat.

So, how did we end up on the topic of religion? When our waitress dropped off the bill, I ask my bio-father if he had change for a ten dollar bill. He handed me two fives. I stuck one of them in my pocket, and dropped the other on the table(yes, only 15% that day because our service was quite bad). He looked at me funny and asked if I noticed anything different about the money. I didn't bring my readers, so I picked up the bill and noticed that something was stamped on the face of Abraham Lincoln. Upon closer inspection, I could make out:

YOU ARE FORGIVEN

ACCEPT CHRIST

FOR ETERNAL LIFE

I immediately took the other five out of my pocket and checked it, and sure enough, it had the same stamp on it! Eee-gads!

At that point - and taking the affectionate smirk on my bio-father's face into consideration - I knew what was up and what was about to go down. My biological father actually had a stamp made that says "YOU ARE FORGIVEN. ACCEPT CHRIST FOR ETERNAL LIVE", and he evangelizes by stamping bills and sending them out into circulation. Can anyone guess my first question to him? It had something to do with the mentioned passage. I'm sure a few of my fellow non-believers will guess it. It's this: "So, are non-believers forgiven, too?"

Paraphrased from memory, the (roughly hour and a half) conversation continued ...

"Yes....everyone!....everyone is forgiven"

Me: "So? Then what's the problem?"

(laughs)

Him: "There is no problem!"

Me: "Then why the need to stamp money with this message?"

At this point, he went into some of the central tenets of the Christian faith...e.g..."sin", "the devil rebelled", "Jesus died on the cross", "the bible says", etc., etc. IOW, preaching to the choir, telling me all of the things I was taught as child and young adult, all of the things which, as an adult, I now reject because it just doesn't stand up to reason.

We covered all topics..e.g. "sin"(and how one or two people making a one-time poor decision that adversely affects other people, spits into the face of personal accountability). We discussed "mercy"(and how God cannot be both infinitely merciful and infinitely just). We discussed "Salvation"(and how substitutionary atonement makes a mockery of "justice"). We discussed "faith"(and how "faith" and "trust" are not necessarily interchangeable, including how the latter of which is built upon a proven track record). We discussed "evil"(and how it's not necessary for "free will" if there can be no "evil" in "Heaven", but yet, there can be "free will")

All of his apologetics that day were met with calmly delivered counter-arguments, none of which he seemed to be able refute. But perhaps the most disturbing thing to me was when I asked him how he could be happy in "Heaven" knowing that his own flesh and blood was being eternally tormented. He sat quietly for a few seconds and offered, "Heaven will be like starting over".

Me: "Oh? What about J***?"[i.e..his wife and mother of my half sisters, sitting silently next to him]

Him: "Well, yes.....I'll remember her."

Me: "So, what you're saying is that it's not really like starting over. It's just that God will erase your memory of nonbelievers, including me. Right?"

Him: "Yeah"