It's been a while since I've posted here. As I state in my "about" section, I mainly blog about religious matters. Likewise, when I venture out into the blogosphere, I naturally tend to read blogs that deal with religion and its various philosophies. I'm letting the record show that I do not do what I do in this pastime called "blogging" for the same reasons that a lot of other bloggers do it. For example, I do not do it to become a popular spokesperson for "Atheism", or for anything else, for that matter. I do not do what I do to see if I can outdo my site's "activity" from last month, or anyone else's blog activity. I just don't care that much about that sort of thing. Here, on my own blog, I can jot down my thoughts, if for no other reason, just as an outlet for self-expression. Other times it can be for trivial things, and yet, other times it can be for having a critical look at other views out there. There is no "One Size Fits All" way to blog. If there is and I missed it, I'd like to know who the arbiter of that is.
Moving on, I learned the other day that some bloggers might regard my blog as "dead". Hmmm. Okay, well, people are of course free to think that, but from where I sit, if I have only one reader, then my blog is very much "alive", thank you very much. And anyway, even if it were "dead'", who's to say it cannot be "resurrected"(no pun) at some point?
While I've touched on multiple topics in the past, I've never really dedicated an entire post to what it means to be right, that is, to possess views that align with reality(a working definition), that which reality I contend is an objective one. And what I mean when I say "objective" is that, irrespective of what we as conscious, thinking beings all think about the universe, the universe will go right on being the universe no matter what we think; it doesn't care how we regard it.
Slightly tangential---in the "New Age" movement, there's a few gurus who are proponents of this notion that our "consciousness" actually creates reality. I disagree with this, but this is for another discussion.
Right now I want to talk about being "right", so I should probably get this part out of the way first:
I believe that I am right when it comes to my being an Atheist. Furthermore, I'm not going to sit here and apologize for that.
Why won't I apologize for it? Simple, because it is natural for everyone to want to be right and to think that they are right when it comes to having the correct view(s) of reality. The alternative would be, what?... to knowingly harbor incorrect views of reality? I think so. So, who would admit that they have false views of the way that the world works?
While the answer is probably "nobody", I contend that this doesn't preclude people from knowing that they're likely wrong, but clinging to their current position, despite that. But let me be clear: No person, regardless of their religious (or non-religious) persuasion, is exempt from or incapable of this behavior, including me.
Since it's impossible to know each and every person's motives, we can still look at people's motives, as a whole, to get a general idea of a group's thought-process. That said, I contend that, by and large, theists use apologetics, not to convince us non-theists that we're wrong, but more so to convince themselves that they are right. Christians, and in particular, those who are forthright and vocal in their stance(e.g..Xian bloggers), more than likely use apologetics to quell their own doubts. I'll get to the evidence of this in a minute.
The other day I heard it contended that Atheists are just as capable of bias as Theists are. It was argued that, like theists, namely Christians, Atheists become Atheists because of the perks and benefits. This is especially interesting, since it was an Atheist who was contending this. Now, I'm not a stranger to this argument; I've heard this "corollary" attempted before, but it's rare to hear it from a fellow Atheist, especially a former Christian turned Atheist.
Speaking only for myself for the time being, you can wager a lot of money that I did NOT "become" an Atheist for emotional reasons. At first, I fought it tooth and nail, every step of the way. This is not to say that I didn't have some of the same doubts that I contend your average believer has, but those doubts were intellectual. It was, without a doubt, my emotions, not intellect, that kept me a believer in spite of those nagging doubts. And this it getting to my point.
One day I decided to explore the reasons that people "become" Atheist, and at the time, I (mistakenly) thought that being an Atheist is something that you just "do" by one's own will. Bzzzzt. Wrong. In hindsight, which, as they say, is "20/20", I saw(see) that Atheism is a result or conclusion. It is not something that you just wake up one day and "decide to become".
I silently lurked over debates/discussions between Christians and Atheists. Being "on the fence", my emotions wanted to see the Christian put forth the more reasonable, logically-sound argument. If I was "wrong" as a Christian, this meant that I'd cease to exist one day and that the day would come that I'd never see the people I love the most ever again. It would mean that I spent a great portion of my life believing a lie. It would mean that the inner "voice" in my head that I thought was "God" at the time, is really just my own imagination; my own conscience.
IOW, there's a lot at stake for those who actually think about the future and how/if their loved ones will be a part of that future. This is not to say that there aren't any people who might not ever think about that sort of thing. To me, that would be bizarre, but, whatever, that's just my opinion.
In contrast, if the Atheists were wrong, then I could rest assured that I'd see my love ones again one day, albeit, one can never be 100% certain that they are "saved".
Much to my dismay and displeasure, I had to finally admit that the Atheist's arguments, as whole, were more logically-sound than the Christian's arguments. I hated this fact, at first. I began checking out sites like TalkOrigins Archive. I was slowly seeing that Evolution better explained the reason for the diversity of life we see on Earth than the "In the Beginning" narrative of "Genesis".
Over time there were more chinks in my believer armor.
Fast forward
The "bell" has been rung and I cannot "unring" it. My intellect finally had to give way to my emotions. It is precisely because of this resultant sphere of thought that I can sit here and contend that Christians, as a whole, are not as objective of researchers as that of Atheists as a whole. Evolution is a fact of science. It is every bit a fact of science as that of "gravitational theory". You don't hear people going around saying, "Do you believe in gravity?", and there's a reason for this.
Now, that being said, there may very well be those Atheists who were never theists who only look at what science and Atheism has to say on the matter. These people are essentially doing what I just charged that Christians do. But as for those Atheists who are former Christians, we've been on both sides and we know what both sides have to offer. I know what Ken Ham and William Lane Craig have to offer. Today, I reject it, because, as an Atheist, I, yes, have Googled what other Atheists are saying. Guilty. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm ignorant of the other side of the issue. So, to the person or persons who assert that I, as an Atheist, am just as guilty as Christians of things like subjective validation and confirmation bias, I say that you are mistaken and misinformed.
Now onto how I know I'm right: For starters, I don't claim to know that I am right in any absolute sense; I only claim to be right provisionally. That, right there, shoots the first hole in the every popular corollary that "Atheism" is just the other side of the "Theist" coin. Let's remember, theism claims to be the be-all/end-all when it comes to "Truth" and reality. The method with which I conclude I am right about how reality works and/or what it entails, is science. Science is provisional; it is self-correcting. Science doesn't deal with absolutes. Although not perfect, science is, to date, the most reliable way to know how reality operates. This is not to say that poetic wisdom cannot be gleaned from Theism and religion. It can. But I'm talking about epistemology and what we can know about objective reality, and in this reality so far, I've yet to any evidence (or even good reasons) to believe that any invisible, conscious beings created and oversee this universe.
It could be stated...... Atheists are biased, too!
Yes! Busted! It's true. I'm biased. Yup.......biased to want to know what's actually true about the world I live in, regardless of how I feel about it. IOW, yet one more hole in the "Atheists are just other side of the same coin" corollary. We know that science-supported information is out there and is accessible to most every Christian Theist. Christians, by and large, choose to either ignore this information, or employ apologetics against it, both of which I contend are to keep themselves convinced.
It could be asked...... aren't Atheists just worshiping another type of God..i.e..science?
To my knowledge, no Atheists congregate at temples, read from holy writs, or point to any mandates when it comes to morality.
This is yet a third hole, and for now, the last, in the tired "Atheism is just other side of the same coin" corollary. This corollary is demonstrably false on many levels. Yes, we are all human, all biased, and all prone to error, etc., but that fact doesn't make it a fact that all beliefs are equally plausible. It also doesn't make all methods for obtaining truth equally reliable.
18 comments:
I saw the exchange to which you refer - I had to reread it a couple times to figure out which "side of the fence" your adversary was on - he certainly had all the hallmarks of a theist. Some of his "statements/arguments" caused me to do a couple of Linda Blair-esque headspins.
If I didn't know better I'd have thought that english was a 2nd language for this chap but I went to his blog to verify that he has ample exposure to our language and general culture - as best i can tell, he is a well traveled american, if not natural born, certainly long since naturalized.
However, in that brief look-through of his blog, i get the impression he buys into the "next new idea" with relative ease - this could explain why he "sought" atheism "for it's benefits" rather than being dragged kicking and screaming like most of us who had our foundations built on the indoctrination we were instilled with since early childhood "for our own good" only to find that foundation to be irreparably faulty and in need of complete renovation.
In any regard - i always look forward to your next blog installments no matter the frequency - blogs are not generally for the "entertainment" of the readership unless specified as such, otherwise it is merely a byproduct. Apart from the way we know each other in "real" life, I have great respect, appreciation and admiration for your views, opinions, writing/writing style, candor and many other things - you and your blog have been instrumental in helping me to better understand you and I both are as people and human beings. Additionally opening my eyes to a wealth of knowledge and perspective through your connections in the "blogosphere".
I feel as though we (at least for my part), despite physically see each other less, that are better friends than ever before. Your insights have helped me understand my own journey and make sense of it all even though we've, at times, disagreed and will likely continue to do so in the future. These types of dialogues are beneficial for growth and expansion.
Peace :)
"Some of his 'statements/arguments' caused me to do a couple of Linda Blair-esque headspins"
Lol. I laugh now, but that sh*t was pretty scary for back in the day.
"as best i can tell, he is a well traveled american"
For some reason I'm getting a middle-aged Asian man transplanted here in the states. I don't know why, exactly. 'Could be that he fell for acupuncture at one time.
"Additionally opening my eyes to a wealth of knowledge and perspective through your connections in the 'blogosphere'."
Sweet. Good to hear.
"I feel as though we (at least for my part), despite physically see each other less, that are better friends than ever before"
Exactly. I feel exactly the same. And yes, we've disagreed, but neither of us got all butt-hurt and ran off(thankfully).
It could be stated...... Atheists are biased, too!
I've been wondering about this as I've been accused, along with the rest of the atheist world, of this several times recently.
Is it a bias to follow the evidence where it leads? My bias, I think, would have tended toward theism. So I find it hard to think of myself as biased in the matter. I wanted Christianity to be true and I slowly, reticently, changed my beliefs about this according to what I experienced as reality.
"Is it a bias to follow the evidence where it leads?" ~ Ruth
I guess it all depends on how you look at it. Technically speaking, we can be biased against someone or something, too.
Viewed like that, I guess it could be said that you and I have a bias against "faith" and "revelation" for acquiring knowledge. On the other hand, both are notorious for misleading people. This is why, when theists (or even Atheists) bring it up, I openly confess that I'm biased to believe that which is most likely true.
"I wanted Christianity to be true and I slowly, reticently, changed my beliefs about this according to what I experienced as reality."
Right? I know that path well. To be a bit of devil's advocate, the observant Christian (or other proponent of the metaphysical) might point out that what they experienced as reality was something entirely different. In turn, they might point out that if their experiences can mislead them, then our experiences can mislead us.
So, how do we know whose experiences reflect objective reality, and whose are the result of things like confirmation bias and an overactive imagination? As best as I can tell, it is using science and the scientific method.
Thx for reading :)
"So, how do we know whose experiences reflect objective reality, and whose are the result of things like confirmation bias and an overactive imagination? As best as I can tell, it is using science and the scientific method." ~boomSLANG
Precisely. This is what I meant by "according to what I experienced as reality". Not fuzzy feelings or personal experiences. I've had personal experiences I could have chalked up to "supernatural" I suppose. But learning more about neuroscience and how the brain operates (though I am by no means an expert) I realize those things are the result of brain activity, not some outside force.
Our experiences can mislead us. That is why we need verifiable, testable, data (i.e. the scientific method).
"I've had personal experiences I could have chalked up to 'supernatural' I suppose."
Oh, absolutely. Me, too. People from all walks of life will claim that they've had these sorts of experiences. More often than not, though, it's things like premonitions and off-chance events and occurrences. E.g.."But...but the odds of [X] happening are just soooo astronomically low!!" (Therefore, "spirits")
It should come as no surprise those who've been indoctrinated to believe that there is a "spirit world" would be especially sensitive to these sorts of things. Some people even attempt to make careers around it..e.g..."psychics", "mediums" and so forth. Much of the time these people rely on ad hoc reasoning and subjective validation on the part of their "clients".
Here's the thing that, for me, it always comes back to:
All of the scientific evidence to date points to the proposition that our minds are dependent on our physical brains. But as you probably know, this doesn't deter the mind/body "duality" proponents in the slightest bit. The interesting part is that the right objective evidence for any of this would turn science on its head. But interestingly, when you scratch beneath the surface of these sorts of claims, the evidence is anecdotal at best. And it's not that people aren't having "experiences"; they are. But our personal experiences aren't evidence of anything except that human beings have experiences.
"Atheism is just other side of the same coin" This corollary is demonstrably false on many levels.
Agreed that the corollary is false, in fact I'd say the closest you can come to using the "coin" example in this case is to not use a coin but a die (dice) - where x = the total number of religions/denominations OMITTING atheism the corollary would work as follows:
Choosing the correct religion/god would be like rolling an x-sided die to determine which was correct, Atheism would equate to NOT having a die to throw nor even considering the question of making a choice.
It sounds better in my mind - hope it create the imagery I intended ;)
peace
"Atheism would equate to NOT having a die to throw nor even considering the question of making a choice."
Right, because, again, non-belief----in this case, non-belief in gods(AKA, Atheism)----isnot necessarily a choice.
I guess all that we can do when we see the ever-popular "tit-for-tat" argument..i.e..."Yes, Theists do this, but so do Atheists!!!", is to keep reminding the people who use it that the corollary is false, at least, it's false when it comes to the dynamics with which we hold/reject our core beliefs. I'm not saying there can't be exceptions to the rule. Perhaps there are some people who became Atheist and remain Atheist for the perks and benefits. 'Not sayin' it's not possible; just highly unlikely.
" ... non-belief in gods(AKA, Atheism)----is not necessarily a choice."
Agreed ... A-theism is no more a "choice" than the choice a zygote/fetus has of being born. it's GOING to happen (in one form or other). and when it does happen, that fetus/child is A-theist at the moment of it's birth and it's only environmental stimuli that influences this new child to modify from its default A-theist position.
One can no more "choose" something they were born with than they can "choose" a heart or lungs or liver etc. All these items come as standard equipment on the Homo Sapiens Sapiens model ... along with Atheism - it's already there; always has been. But like cleaning out a long neglected attic, it can sometimes be difficult and time consuming to clear out all the years of collected clutter to get back to the original default state.
"One can no more 'choose' something they were born with than they can 'choose' a heart or lungs or liver etc. All these items come as standard equipment on the Homo Sapiens Sapiens model ... along with Atheism - it's already there; always has been"
I see what you're saying and agree. Everyone is born without a belief in "God"/gods, therefore, everyone is born at least passively Atheist. In that sense, correct, it's not a choice.
But I'd contend that it's not even a choice, at least, not in a practical sense, when someone makes an informed decision to be a Theist, but then becomes an Atheist later on in life. I suppose that one could technically choose to try to live with cognitive dissonance, but again, that is not practical nor realistic.
I didn't choose to stop believing in Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy; my lack of belief in those characters is a result/conclusion of my applying skepticism and logic to those claims, which was something that I had no inclination to do as a child. As an adult, I can no more choose to readopt belief in God than I can choose to readopt belief in the aforementioned characters.
You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.
"I didn't choose to stop believing in Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy"
But to be fair, you didn't choose TO believe in them either since these characters were presented to you before you (and everyone) formed the capacity for critical thinking - in other words, when we were very young. We're born every bit as ASanta, AEasterBunny and AToothfaery as we are Atheist ;)
"You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube."
I'd counter this by saying - we aren't born with 'toothpaste' so there's no "tube" to refill ... if fact, we're GIVEN the "toothpaste" to do as we will looong before we have the mental faculties to understand what "toothpaste" is used for and we go forward making a big mess with it ... and then they give us more ... and pretty soon we're so used to "using" the "toothpaste" that we start seeking it out on our own and go out and buy it
"But to be fair, you didn't choose TO believe in them either since these characters were presented to you before you (and everyone) formed the capacity for critical thinking - in other words, when we were very young. We're born every bit as ASanta, AEasterBunny and AToothfaery as we are Atheist"
Okay, I'm willing to grant you all of that, albeit, we're now talking before theory mind is developed, which opens up a whole new avenue to explore. When we develop theory of mind(at approx. 4, 5, 6 yrs old), we actually realize that other people can hold mistaken views, including the adults who fed us the Santa and Tooth Fairy rigmarole. At that point, I contend that we at least passively choose to believe in the stuff we were handed.
But for now, my main contention is not really about passive Atheism Vs active Atheism so much as it is about Atheism not being a choice, and since it isn't, it shoots down the "Atheism is just the other side of the Theist coin!" corollary.
" it is about Atheism not being a choice, and since it isn't, it shoots down the "Atheism is just the other side of the Theist coin!" corollary."
We agree - to reiterate - to me, atheism within the coin corollary is - to "choose" not to flip a coin at all because you don't have a coin to flip. the coin is representative of choice of theism ... since atheism pretty much means to reject the very deities that are the foundation of theism ... the position of atheism is to effectively reject the coin, much less the choices the coin represents.
"rigmarole"
That, sir, is just a damn fine classic type word ;)
"We agree - to reiterate - to me, atheism within the coin corollary is - to "choose" not to flip a coin at all because you don't have a coin to flip."
Okay, gotcha. From my perspective, though, this has nothing to do with a "gamble"..i.e..to flip or not flip the proverbial "coin".
Where I was coming from with my use of the "coin" analogy, is that theists wrongly postulate that there is dichotomy going on. IOW, they think that Atheism is simply the opposing counter-part to Theism..e.g..left/right, North Pole/South Pole, hot/cold. Moreover, Theists wrongly postulate that what is true in a critique of their own worldview can also be said about the Atheist worldview, hence, the false corollary.
Their thinking goes as follows:
- "Oh, yeah? Well, Atheists are biased, too!"
- "Really? Well Atheists worship the God of science!"
- "Is that so? Okay, well, Atheists become Atheists for the benefits, too!"
...and on, and on, and on.
This mentality, I contend, is poppycock. When I attempt to expose this disingenuous maneuver on their part, I use the "coin" analogy to express how they're attempting to employ a corollary. That corollary is just not there.
So, regardless of if said coin is "flipped", or not, I reject that there is any such "coin" in the context of a corollary.
" I reject that there is any such "coin" in the context of a corollary."
We're on the same page :)
It's hard to imagine where I'd be, how things would be different, etc., had I not been raised to believe what I at one time firmly believed. My maternal grandmother was a very kind, considerate, giving person, and I often wonder how much of that was due to her religious beliefs. Was she kind because of her religious beliefs?.. or was she kind despite those beliefs? Oh, well, I'll never know = /
Was she kind because of her religious beliefs?.. or was she kind despite those beliefs?
You/we may never know for certain, but i think there's overwhelming evidence (granted, much anecdotal) that many people who reject their beliefs/religion (or never been exposed) will propagate kindness simply because it increases their chance to receive kindness (and safety) in return. In other words it's been relatively proven as an evolutionary beneficial trait.
So, never having met your G-ma - I'd go with "She was kind despite ..." I know both of mine were absolute angels of love and I miss them greatly ;)
"i think there's overwhelming evidence (granted, much anecdotal) that many people who reject their beliefs/religion (or never been exposed) will propagate kindness simply because it increases their chance to receive kindness (and safety) in return. In other words it's been relatively proven as an evolutionary beneficial trait."
Yeah, that, and there's a bit of an unspoken social agreement going on..i.e..if we care about existing and if we know that being harmed is undesirable, then we can logically conclude that others probably care about existing and don't want to be harmed, as well. It's not Chinese science, or anything :P
"So, never having met your G-ma - I'd go with 'She was kind despite ...' I know both of mine were absolute angels of love and I miss them greatly"
Yeah, mine would likely be all that she was even without her religion..e.g..always genuine and down to earth, always seeing who else needed attention; never wanting all the attention on herself.
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