This post is going to be kept short 'n sweet, getting right to the point:
Dear Christians,
As most of you know, a Jordanian pilot was recently burned alive. If you haven't seen the video, feel free to see the provided link at the bottom of the post. Once you do that, here's my question for you:
If it makes you cringe to watch a fellow human being be incinerated while still alive; if it's an unsettling feeling to watch a man scream in agony as his skin melts off of his face and drips to the ground, OR..if the video description alone is just too grotesque for you to watch it, then I'm curious, how are you okay with most of humanity suffering a similar fate, only worse, because they are not permitted to die and must suffer the agony 24/7, for all of eternity. Well? Anyone?
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4030583977001/warning-extremely-graphic-video-isis-burns-hostage-alive/?#sp=show-clips
18 comments:
I think some of them will tell you that people have "free will" and therefore a choice to follow or not follow god. The pilot really didn't (even though his country did and I suppose by extension, he did to join the military)
I know I said this somewhere - but whether a believer or not - EVERYONE is going to "sin" at some point ... and considering we're all supposedly burdened with the original sin of Adam and Eve ... I'd argue we're all destined for a hot time at the old lake o fire for eternity if the god of the bible is real ... for all the trials and tribulations, twists and contortions that most believers go through to try to stay on god's "good side", I just don't know how that is even remotely a realistic goal when the bible (or any holy scripture) is so damn convoluted and contradictory that it's virtually impossible to understand what - if anything - this god requires and expects from us wretched little beasts.
I figure life is simpler just to chuck the whole lot out the window and treat people with love, respect and compassion and let the chips fall where they may IF there is such a god ... but in the mean time, I just don't have the time or internal capacity to waste on trying to figure it out as proposed.
Kind of like trying to bake a cake using a recipe written in Aramaic or some other dead language that i don't know ... better to skip that recipe and go get a Betty Crocker cake mix at the market :)
Not all Christians believe in hell. Some think that, apart from a spiritual birth, humans have nothing that transcends death. That said, I do understand that the majority of Westerners believe in Hell.
I have no interest in watching the video, but Hell has been bugging me again lately, too.
As Bob said, not all believers believe in Hell, but most of Western Christendom does, and it is kind of sickening that they could go about living their everyday lives with any kind of happiness knowing that this fate awaits the vast majority.
It made me almost insane and it should. What kind of world is this I thought.
@Alice - While most westerners might "believe" in a type of "hell", I think it fair to say that most do not "believe" in the fundamental type of hell that will receive just about everyone. Now, I'm no expert on fundie xianity but from what I've read and been exposed to, almost every transgression will get you a one way ticket there. From a small "white" lie, pocketing a dollar someone unknowingly dropped to private masturbation ... as I understand, all of these and many more.
No, I don't think most westerners buy in to THAT type of hell and the rules that govern it ... I think they believe in a more abstract hell that is only reserved for those who escape mortal, worldly justice and/pr those whose crimes are so heinous that earthly justice cannot properly punish them at the mortal level like the ISIS perpetrators of the repugnant "execution"/immolation of the Jordanian pilot or Presidents Obama and/or W. Bush depending on your politics.
Westerners NEED to believe in some type of final justice to atone for transgression that are not (or under) prosecuted so that they can maintain balance in their minds - they cannot abide the fact that sometimes the bad guy wins and gets away with murder. But they also cannot realistically accept a hell that melts the faces (and everything else) of otherwise good and/or innocent people wh have only committed the most minor and almost victimless crimes - I think most westerners would reject that kind of hell out of hand about as fast and confidently as us atheists reject the hypothesis of deities. So while they might believe in heaven and hell - they have a very specific and limited application for hell.
My observations.
FYI, I won't watch the video but I've seen a couple still photos after the poor man was alight - I didn't want to see those either but they were on a friend's timeline.
"I think some of them will tell you that people have 'free will' and therefore a choice to follow or not follow god." ~ R. Hall
True, but we both know that what they offer is a false dilemma(or false dichotomy). I'm very familiar with the "we send ourselves to hell" apologetic, and it is intellectually bankrupt.
But that topic could be for another post. Right now I'm focusing on the scenario that Christians are "right"..i.e. there is a place called "hell"(aka, the "lake of fire"), which is the (supposed) final destination of all those who die a non-Christian. If Christianity is "true"(for sake of discussion), I'm interested in hearing from, either, a) those Christians who feel sick to their stomach watching a video of someone being burned alive, but who are perfectly fine with the exact same thing happening to the occupants of "hell", or b) those Christians who can't watch the video but who are perfectly fine with the concept of their fellow human beings suffering the same exact fate. IOW, this "Sneering internet Atheist" wants to see some god damned consistency for a change.
BTW, I realize that there's a third option, too, and that is people who aren't the least bit phased watching a video of someone being burned alive. My open letter doesn't apply to those people if they exist, because, whether they be Christians, Muslims, Atheists, or whatever, they lack empathy and aren't entitled to an opinion on my blog, because I don't associate with anyone who is subhuman. People who have zero problem watching a video of someone being burned alive are everything that's wrong with the world today.
"Not all Christians believe in hell." ~ KCBob
True, KCBob. I would never deny that some believers toss out or find a way to circumvent the face-value language that delineates the consequences for denying Jesus. This includes Jesus' own (supposed) words, too. But again, I'm not addressing those Christians; I'm talking about the moderate-to-fundamentalists of the world, those who believe that "hell" is a literal place. And while I don't know the numbers, I'm willing to wager that most believers here in the West believe in a literal "hell" and that this will be the final destination of all non-Christians. I would like to hear, in their own words, how they are sickened by the video, but are perfectly fine with "hell". I want to know how/where/why they make the distinction.
"As Bob said, not all believers believe in Hell, but most of Western Christendom does, and it is kind of sickening that they could go about living their everyday lives with any kind of happiness knowing that this fate awaits the vast majority." ~ Alice
Especially if they have friends and blood relatives who are people of other faith or no faith at all. Most relatives on my biological father's side are devout Christians. Those of those with whom I'm connected on a certain networking site are aware that I have deconverted. I don't hide it. They are kind and sensitive people, so I'm surmising that there's some cognitive dissonance there, but I'm not ruling out apologetics, because, after all, that's why Xian apologetics exist in the first place..i.e..to produce a "work-around" for the nagging problems.
But as it stands, I fail to see how anyone can conceive of being in a place of pure, unadulterated "bliss", while simultaneously having the knowledge that their own flesh and blood are being incinerated. I've heard one defense before that argued that "God" will erase the memories of loved ones who don't make it through the Pearly Gates. How lovely God is.
There's more, but here's just a few verses where a literal place of torment is described, and in one of the provided verses "hell" is named.
Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50 “The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Mark 9:43, 48-49 “And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire…where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ For everyone will be salted with fire.”
Matthew 5:22 "But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell."
Jesus' own words confirm that I and other non-believers will suffer much in the same way that the Jordanian pilot suffered, only that he is "luckier", since he actually dies and his suffering ends. Presumably, the occupants of "hell" never die; their torment is eternal. God is good.
So again, let's wait a little bit to see if any Christian will take me up on my offer.
"they cannot abide the fact that sometimes the bad guy wins and gets away with murder."
Yes, and consider what they believe is the ultimate "bad guy"..i.e..the "Devil", AKA, "Satan", an individual who, according to their doctrine, is the greatest perpetrator of "evil" in existence. He makes Jeffrey Dahmer look like a Girl Scout. Get away with murder? He gets away with bloody murder, all running amock, throwing a wrench into God's plan. And curiously, he is not only not punished, but is rewarded. He can do whatever the hell he wants(pun intended) because man's "free will" trumps everything, even "justice". God stands by with arms folded as child molesters and serial killers exercise their "free will", which evidently trumps the safety of their victims.
And curiously, he is not only not punished, but is rewarded. He can do whatever the hell he wants
Even at the height of my belief/theology - this point always gave me fits - aka cognitive dissonance ... it was just SOOO ... irreconcilable with the worldview that religion wanted me to unquestioningly accept ... and there wasn't even a bad answer that was offered to "fix" this "problem" ... always something along the lines of "that's the way it is" or "cuz we say so" ... that line NEVER works with me
I've been thinking that it comes down to cherry picking. We all (I did too) pick the parts of the bible we like and ignore/justify/dismiss the rest.
"I've been thinking that it comes down to cherry picking."
And I think that you are exactly right. How easy is it to simply come along and say that any and all scripture that is unpalatable and/or doesn't fit our preconception of a "God" is therefore instances of man getting "God" all wrong, and the parts that we like are instances of "man" getting it "right"? Isn't that just a bit too convenient? I think so. In fact, it'd make a good blog topic, if you don't have a problem with it, since it came up on your blog.
Go ahead and run with it. I've got some other things upcoming.
"Even at the height of my belief/theology - this point always gave me fits - aka cognitive dissonance"
Right? I mean, we're presumably talking about biblegod's BIGGEST enemy, the guy who is presumably throwing a wrench into biblegod's "Plan". When this former "angel" rebelled (in Heaven?), why didn't "God" just nip it in the bud right then? Let me guess....then there'd be no "free will", right? Okay, so, IOW, "God" needed one of his angels to rebel? Um Whaaaa...?
Utter nonsense.
"I've got some other things upcoming."
I'll keep an eye out.
...::tumbleweeds::...
Aside from one Christian who doesn't even believe in "Hell", it's been nearly two weeks, and not one peep from the pro-"Hell" camp.
::crickets::
This should be a piece of cake. Really. For those Christians who uphold the "Hell" doctrine, which involves the agonizing torment of having your skin burned off like the man in the video, this is presumably just part of "God" upholding his "Perfect Justice". It's a no-brainer. "God" is exacting "Justice" on non-Christians, so discussing the details should be no problem for Christians. But yet, there evidently is a problem.
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